Launching a WordPress Product in Public: Session 28


In this podcast episode, Corey Miller and Cory Maass delve into the challenges and mindset required for entrepreneurship. They discuss the sacrifices, persistence, and a bit of luck needed to succeed, and how their drive to create has shaped their entrepreneurial journeys. They also explore the balance between work and personal life, the concept of success and retirement, and the importance of diversifying one’s identity beyond work. The conversation also touches on the role of resilience, setting boundaries, and managing expectations in business. They conclude by emphasizing the significance of focus when starting something new.

Top Takeaways:

  • Resilience in Entrepreneurship: The conversation underscores the importance of resilience in the world of entrepreneurship. Both Corey Miller and Cory Maass emphasize that setbacks and challenges are an inherent part of the entrepreneurial journey. They stress the need to endure through difficult times, as surviving these challenges can lead to personal and professional growth.
  • Balancing Passion and Realism: The dialogue explores the balance between entrepreneurial passion and realism. It’s noted that while passion can drive individuals to venture into entrepreneurship, it should be coupled with a sense of realism about the inherent difficulties and uncertainties.
  • Managing Expectations and Boundaries: Corey Miller shares insights about managing expectations and setting clear boundaries in business. This includes discussing how to handle customer interactions and respond to criticism, emphasizing the importance of maintaining professionalism and not allowing disagreements to become personal.

Mentioned in the show:

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Corey Miller (00:00:03) – 28.

Cory Maass (00:00:05) – Eight. That’s.

Corey Miller (00:00:21) – Have a topic first. It’s totally off topic.

Cory Maass (00:00:25) – Okay.

Corey Miller (00:00:26) – It’s on topic, but off topic. It’s not on your agenda. It’s not specifically how we move OMG forward. But I think it would be fun for like five minutes.

Cory Maass (00:00:38) – Absolutely.

Corey Miller (00:00:42) – Okay. You ready for the off topic? Oh I’m sorry everybody. Corey and Cory launched an WordPress product session 28. And I think just saying that helps with the topic. This first sidebar topic okay.

Cory Maass (00:00:57) -Okay, hit me.

Corey Miller (00:00:59) – We are insane. I was talking to friend Matt Medeiros. It’s like, you know, some days it feels like being in business. It’s like there’s this luck and part magic. Whatever you want to call it, this unexplainable thing that you’re like, I. I can do everything I want on this side. But there’s a dose that’s just not in my control. It’s not up to me. And I don’t think you want me saying this. Yeah, we’re a little bit insane. And I was like.

Corey Miller (00:01:32) – I think I need to own that a little bit. Like we’ve been doing this 28 sessions. That’s just the numbers. When we started doing this live, it actually goes back to almost a year ago.

Cory Maass (00:01:46) – I think January 11th is the first one.

Corey Miller (00:01:50) – That was from this. But you and I had been talking meeting before that, and you’re like Zachary. They only have to be a little. I don’t want to say the word because I don’t want people have to believe it out. But insane to do this, to do this thing called entrepreneurship, to try to put and then you go products, you go, okay, maybe a little bit even more. But like, I don’t know, it’s the same. But like, do we have to be a little bit absolutely insane to do this? Isn’t there like a lot of easier options?

Cory Maass (00:02:25) – Or yeah or no options. Like. Numerous friends who just work. And some of them are, you know, elite freelancers and some of them work factory jobs, and all of them are.

Cory Maass (00:02:48) – Most of the time, I think are content with just working and occasionally they’re like, you know, I wish I had your drive, I wish I had your vision wish and was like, I don’t I don’t know what that is like, the same way that a lot of people. There was a good example recently. Oh, yeah. Was talking about Mexican train. Right. So my my Mexican train online game. Uh, that I started during the pandemic, and I was talking to a woman at the local golf course who organizes, like, regular Mexican train get togethers. And she’s like, you know, well, you’re you’re the the authority, you know, and you must be an expert because you play all the time or something like that. And I was like, no, I, I built, I built the game. Like that isn’t to say I don’t play occasionally, but like, I’m, I’m. I look at something like this. Used to drive or don’t know if that’s true, but when I was a little kid, like little little kid, I had a tub, a big plastic tub full of arts and crafts supplies.

Cory Maass (00:04:09) – And then I also had a closet full of toys, including, like, I remember one epic Christmas getting like 30 Star Wars figurines. And all I ever did was play with my arts and craft supplies and then eventually Legos and Constructs and Capsela and Erector Sets and all that. And remember, actually my mom coming in and and being like, you know, why don’t you ever play with your toys like we bought you? You asked at Christmas. You ask for all of these, you know, Star Wars figurines and you never play with them. And and it’s like, so in my head, I’m like, I get it. Like, since I was born, I am a creator. And it’s a it’s a compulsion. It’s a drive from when I was six. Like, that’s my earliest proof of that, you know. And so but yeah, what that is, why can’t just sit on a couch and watch a football game? I have to be banging away at something. I have no idea.

Corey Miller (00:05:14) – So we’re a little bit crazy.

Cory Maass (00:05:15) – Yeah, like we’re broken.

Corey Miller (00:05:19) – You think about it 

Cory Maass: wired differently? 

Corey Miller: Yeah. Wired differently. Yeah, but I don’t know. I was like, gosh. I. I think I’m about myself pretty rationally, I think and tempered and and like and I go, yeah, but this job is not like it’s definitely not for everybody.

Cory Maass: Right.

Corey Miller: You go, God, the, the things we try to do to get that very well, just to build a product that’s been on you. I’ve helped with the product direction, different things, but just to get it and then to go, okay. You know, there’s there’s no guarantee people will like it, you know? I told Lindsey this for her startup. I said, I cannot guarantee maybe if there was some notion or perceived expectation, I would think, like with us or with Lindsey or different, even businesses, there’s no guarantee it’s going to work. 

Cory Maass: No 

Corey Miller: High confidence in what we’re doing are the right things for it to potentially work. (00:06:25) – It’s kind of like I might have tried gardening since a long time ago and you’re like, man, I can really kill some plants and, you know, but like, you can get the right soil, you can get the right conditions, water it properly, maybe doesn’t work. You know, like there’s the there’s a degree of failure in, in every endeavor. And then I just go, I guess we all want certainty. And like to your friends that were saying, like, I wish I had your job and you know, I almost want to go. I don’t think you do, because it comes with this set of oftentimes with entrepreneurship dealing with repeated failure. 

Cory Maass:Yeah.  

Corey Miller: it’s funny, I talked to an entrepreneur group. I had to miss our meeting like two weeks ago. And I told him, I said, I think when I get asked to talk, it’s to talk about my failures, not my success, because it’s kind of like the the thing is living with a lot of failures, right.

Corey Miller (00:07:27) – What was it? Thomas Edison success is 90% perspiration, 1% inspiration. Inspiration. And you’re so true because everybody has the 1%. Everybody’s got the great idea and you’re like, but you don’t have another 9%. And I wouldn’t even say it’s all persistence. There’s a great measure of just getting f-ing lucky. Like, oh, we got this. You know, even some of the biggest startups, you’re like, they. Luck. Hard luck worked into that space where they discovered something. You know.

Cory Maass (00:08:04) – But it can still die on the vine like they still have to drag it across. Some sort of finish line end or multiple finish lines? Milestones, you know, keep dragging it. Keep dragging it. But I mean, it’s it’s like the you know, why you you arguably had a success exiting themes and then you turned around and you could have either rested on your laurels or gone and bought a job or gone and gotten a regular job. Um, you know, working for somebody else that’s safe.

Cory Maass (00:08:41) – You’re like, I won the lottery once. I’m going to stop. Uh, or, you know, like, and I like, I have client work. I’ve had jobs at the time and I’ve never not hustled is the, the buzzword, but I’ve never not prioritized nights, weekends. Extra energy, neglecting friends and family and self relaxation. Quality of life. Sometimes to not pursue these things. And I don’t you know, what is that like? Because there’s I mean it’s fun. And so when I die, I want to even, you know, I’m mean I’m 47, man. Like I’ve had no success. Like I’ve, I’ve had blips and I’ve, you know, there are things that I would consider a success, but there are things that most people would not consider success. But I’ve had fun mostly, and I’m proud of myself. And it’s like, to me, this is my hobby and this is where it gets weird. Like. Uh, looking at retirement. I don’t, I don’t see I mean, this is ADHD where it’s now and not now, and there’s a bunch of other stuff that goes into this, but like looking, you know, 20, 20 years out, 65.

Cory Maass (00:10:08) – It’s like, I’m, I’m not not going to work like I don’t I don’t understand that concept. Like it it I will probably be working if I have the money to retire and so income isn’t required. Then I’m going to be working on something totally fun and outlandish or whatever. But it’s still all that risk, right? Like there’s no there’s no guaranteed that I get anything out of it other than. I don’t know, a sense of self-worth or. Sense of pride and something that I’ve created.

Corey Miller (00:10:45) – It. Yeah. So much of what you said there. So you go like I’m going to add something into this, under this persistence. Like there’s one part of inspiration ideas. But I just go, yeah, there’s like everybody has a great idea. Yeah. Like that’s I trivialized ideas. I think there’s innovation. I think there’s thoughts. I think there’s value in ideas. Absolutely. I minimize it because I go. It’s not the idea, it’s just a fantasy until you put the execution into it.

Corey Miller (00:11:16) – Right? But under persistence, you said something that really ring a bell. The sacrifice. Persistence. Maybe that’s not full label. Persistence is just like that. Hard work and keeping going, doing all the work. There’s another part which is sacrifice. Like, to do that, it means you got to respond to a slack message at 6 a.m., or when you’re waiting for your kids at the school bus stop, or and that costs something like, I don’t know, a lot of entrepreneurs that have a diversity of hobbies. You know, I’ve said this for years, like, I don’t have a real quote unquote hobby like normal people, right? Because my hobby was reading. Or business leadership, marketing, all these things. Product. Everything to help me be better. And that was my hobby and I didn’t. I do enjoy that. Yeah. Sacrifice part and then the luck, the magic. Like who knows if you shift timelines on any successful company, you know. In our awareness. If you shift those timelines, did they come? If they came in a year afterwards, a year before some timeline, before or after, would it they have been as much as they stay and that still go? The entrepreneur, the leaders, the people that do that? Sure you can.

Corey Miller (00:12:37) – You can have those moments. But I go they also hit the right time, right place, right? You know.

Cory Maass (00:12:43) – Right.

Corey Miller (00:12:44) – Not to discount everything.

Cory Maass (00:12:47) – But, you know, time. Time in in is that fourth element in in everything, which has been a big life lesson for me of like all of the people involved, had to have gone through a certain amount of stuff in their lives to be able to. Do or not do what what they’re going to do at that moment. And and then there’s also mean the luck of like you’re walking across the street and you run into the right person and have a conversation or I mean, there’s so much of that, but it’s like there’s also. Um, I feel like it’s half pipe from high school well enough, but dots on a graph, right? Like there’s also not. I would suspect that not a lot of businesses come down to a true toggle one, 1 or 0, make or break. I imagine that there’s a lot of those, and there’s a lot, a lot of those over time.

Cory Maass (00:13:45) – And it’s like there’s a there’s a culmination. To where it’s, you know, again, usually I would expect it. It’s like, well, it’s not the whole butterfly thing of like somebody walks in and flips the light on at just the right instant in the history of the universe that we are now successful or not successful, but overall lucky. Hard work that that tends to manifest luck. Like putting yourself out there so that luck can kind of find you a lot of the time. But also, yeah, that that sitting on the couch and and working instead of not working or like brain is going and don’t, don’t have kids but I’ve, I remember early on reading a lot of books about like when so there’s, you know, business leaders that then became an entrepreneur was always a word. But like then there’s the startup entrepreneur, and there was a whole I’ve been lucky enough to be working during kind of the the build up of the internet entrepreneur starting in the early 2000, when learned about 37 signals, Joel Sapolsky and Rob Walling and and all these people who think are and Derek Sivers who are considered, you know, thought leaders and early thought leaders, and they wrote books and reading about all that stuff.

Cory Maass (00:15:10) – And then just and then the trickle down of of people writing on forums and their like, you know, early questions, you know, how do you have kids? You know, all these 20 year olds got married and have kids. So then how do you have kids and not neglect them? But but still, you know, work all the time and and remember reading about people who are like, yeah, well, you know, I’m watching my kid go down the slide, but my brain is, you know, thinking about whether it should be a two column layout or a three column layout and, you know, and then moral questions that will not step foot into but the like, you know, so then are you present? And I know a lot of people have gone through transitions of being present or is that present or how much how long do I hustle for and what am I willing and just anyway, it’s these endless, this endless tangle of complexity that we add to our lives by aspiring for something that.

Cory Maass (00:16:12) – We don’t have to.

Corey Miller (00:16:15) – Well, it’s like this I go the. What what are we doing all that for? And I think a generic. Category for all of this is freedom. Freedom to make the decisions. Freedom to as best you can. Control. Your present and future. 

Cory Maass: Yeah. 

Corey Miller: Like that’s why I continue to pay this pretty high price is because I really value. The freedom of like we discuss. We’re kind of like in our pajamas and I’m not.

Cory Maass (00:16:53) – I’m not in my paramas. I’m sitting sitting here in a suit 

Corey Miller (00:16:55) – Sorry.

Corey Miller (00:16:57) – I’m sorry. But you go like. Yeah, I like that sense of freedom now. I always engaged, like when I worked jobs. I enjoyed those jobs for the most part, like every job I’ve had. And I had a lot of jobs before I started the business. And when things weren’t great or I wanted to move on, I moved on. You know, so I have sacrificed that freedom. I guess if you think about that, it’s like, you know, can’t, can’t, wouldn’t leave the businesses I have today got investment in those.

Corey Miller (00:17:36) – And but, you know, with the job I could leave. So I guess I’ve sacrificed that freedom for these other senses of, like, not having to tell somebody, I’m going to go pick up my kids right now or having some sense of control. Now, what’s the cost of all that? You know, what do you really get? Because, you know, there’s always those ways. But I just still think, like, what’s the more saner potentially is, I don’t know, maybe somebody else has to worry about all these things. And there’s a it seems like businesses are changing and become more open where like it’s an integrated effort. It’s not command and control. It’s like, no, a good producer, a good performer. I’m going to try to reward and give them those things. And I think there’s a lot of people that have that sense of freedom in a in a job. But so go get a little bit. We got to be a little bit crazy.

Cory Maass (00:18:32) – Well then think, you know freedom.

Cory Maass (00:18:35) – Freedom was my answer for a long time. But then I started freelancing and somebody recently posted and so sorry to finish that thread. So I have freedom. That doesn’t mean I need to create something out of, you know, from scratch. Um, somebody posted recently on Twitter, why? Why did you start freelancing or something like that? And I replied, or no, what? What was it that you did that made you start to be successful in your freelancing. And without questioning. The word success and all that stuff. Most people were like, oh, I read this book or double down on recurring recurring revenue or whatever it was. And I wrote I, I made dropped my cost of living and increased my savings. And it’s like, so I’ve got because to me. Success is not working 40 hours a day. In that context, right? And so then what do I do with that extra time? I still work. You know, it’s like I could just go sit on the couch, like, could, you know, if I can work part time and and cover my expenses.

Cory Maass (00:20:01) – Like, why aren’t I on the golf course all the time, or why aren’t, like, that cost money? Why aren’t I sitting quietly somewhere that’s free doing. You know what I mean?

Corey Miller (00:20:12) – See, I think you’re already working on your retirement equation. Now you’re like, really? Crystallising it? Because just like you said a while back, like, I don’t see myself retiring, you know, in the, in a traditional sense of it. And I told Lindsey that a couple of years ago now I’ve softened that a bunch. But I saw both my dad and stepdad retire, and like, they did all the projects that have been really wanting to do in the first six months to a year. 

Cory Maass:

Corey Miller: Yep. And then they go, what? Well, what else is it? And there’s I think this component behind the I don’t ever want to retire is. I want to wake up and feel like I’m contributing and doing something. Giving of myself that feels good to me. You know what I mean? And what I’ve seen with a lot of my older family members and different is like, that wasn’t really worked out.

Corey Miller (00:21:06) – And then one day, you know, the statistics on men in particular retiring and dying within the year or two. I don’t know the exact figures, but I’ve heard it enough to go like it’s insane an experience like it’s true when you don’t have something that you’re really interested in, something that kind of gives you some semblance of a routine, that you’re doing something that’s not just like gives you some fulfillment, showcases your value in the world. That was a huge part of my burnout was like, that was my in one sense, it was like being I wasn’t retired but burned out, but it was like, oh, I’m not working, can’t work physically. Got sick if I came near this computer and desk and I was like, oh my God. And I had to wrestle with these questions and it scared the shit out of me because I’m like, whoa. So much of my identity, my value, my self-worth is a part of that. Now, I know that I have values, human being, but I go know those things helped me see those things.

Corey Miller (00:22:10) – I don’t think that’s wrong, necessarily. I think I want to diversify that better in the future. You know, where it’s like not just that work, you know, is the bulk carrying the bulk of that identity. It’s also family, it’s hobbies, it’s friendships, different things. But that retirement thing I think comes to this too, is like it’s a bigger issue in our culture in the world is what do you know? Work is a part of our purpose and expression. Even if we don’t get paid for that work, it’s still meaningful contribution back and forth. Like you’ve had this urge since you were a kid to create. That’s not going to change when you get retirement age. Most likely, I would guess, might find a different expression, but like, yeah.

Cory Maass (00:22:53) – Or like you said it, it changes gears. And I initially wanted to say it, you know, it’s a downshift. But I’ve seen I’ve seen people who. Uh, older generation around me. Who didn’t? Who.

Cory Maass (00:23:10) – Who couldn’t relax but have learned to relax. And then people who. Yeah. Relaxed too much. Think as the example you were bringing up. And so then started volunteering more and going okay, let me work but contribute and think that’s where it’s, um, specific to people. Like years ago I had. Um. Arguably the first glimpse of a successful product that I had. I built a little personal finance tracker and it got written up on. Oh gosh. Um, and it talk about luck and right timing. This was before they blew up. Uh, they’d only been around a little while, and I offhandedly sent them an email like, oh, hey, I built this cool little free thing. And I was walking back from a coffee where I’d been talking to a guy. This is when I lived in New York City. So I’m like, met with a guy who was like, I see some real potential in this. This is neat. Like, I work at this other fintech company.

Cory Maass (00:24:22) – You know, maybe there’s there’s a chance to work together. I was like, I feel really cool right now. And then I’m walking back to I worked at the actually the, the we work um, that’s in all the documentaries about the tremendous collapse of work, but was walking back to the Soho building and, and my phone just starts going bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. And apparently all of a sudden Lifehacker, without any notice, had written about it. And like, I was just seeing all the signups, so actually had to run back to the office to, like, turn off my email because had, like in just the five minute walk home and had like 6000 emails or something. Um. Uh, why did I bring all that up? So it was my first like, oh, I’ve got, you know, tens of thousands of users all of a sudden. This is neat. Totally free. I never could figure out how to monetize it, but I was splashing around trying to figure out how to monetize it, talking to talking to VCs and advisors, mentors, whatever.

Cory Maass (00:25:22) – And then. While doing all this. It was like sharing, sharing this with my mom and and she’s like, you know, what do you what do you let let’s say you become a one of these internet success, you know, makes millions. Like, what would you do with that money? And was like, whatever I want. And she was like, I don’t, you know, that makes no sense to me. Like what? What would you do like, with with nothing or with nothing but time or and was like, whatever I want. Like. And at the time that made the most sense to me, you know, but it was like the that’s how guess I view retirement, which is the you can, you can put the pedal to the gas or you can totally take it off, or you can find the balance or it’s but it’s like, what is what is fun or what is enjoyable or what is what gives you a sense of purpose or but it’s like, I honestly suspect that a lot of people struggle with that.

Cory Maass (00:26:27) – Like the identity was always the as you said, was, you know, tied into work because it was fed to us of, you know, you work for somebody else 40 hours a week because that’s government mandated you make enough money to fill these coffers so that at 65 you stop working, you know, and then can do whatever you want within the budget depended on the amount of money that you save. And it’s like we’re already yeah, pushing and pulling those levers a little bit, but I suspect that I will always work. But we that that word work is misleading because it’s I will always be doing something that I enjoy. But what you know, lately I’ve been able to introduce other things like golf, which is like the first sport I’ve played in a long time. But it’s. And then for me, it’s mostly social, but I’m trying to like get a little better at it, you know, and it’s like and make time for other things. The voice has gotten a little quieter. Now I’m just rambling here, but like the the drive to create nonstop has gotten a little quieter.

Cory Maass (00:27:39) – And so that’s kind of what I’m hoping, like you said, changing my perception of retirement, which is like, oh, I have a project I want to work on a little bit, but I don’t have to bang away at it, you know, nights and nights and weekends compulsively because I need success at something.

Corey Miller (00:27:59) – Yeah. I hope this is a good effort. I hope this is a good episode to everybody. I think it’s very honest. You know, and authentic to the experience and why some of us are pulled to this direction is because you said what success is for me. I was like, okay, think about that. What is success for me? And. You know, when I think about into the future, I worry a little bit like, okay, what’s most retirement? It is volunteer like you said. Okay. Well. What are those opportunities to do that? You know now not ready to retire. Don’t can’t retire. You know. Need work but also want to call my shots.

Corey Miller (00:28:48) – But you look into the future and go volunteer positions hobbies those things. And I’ve spent most of my career just focused on work. And now I’ve had to think about those things where you get a little bit more balance. But I think overall this is. We do this kind of crazy thing because we want these things that we don’t see are available. To our degree of satisfaction in the in work.

Cory Maass (00:29:17) – Yeah. It’s whatever your own like. I’ve definitely heard people in early argument for, uh, on specifically doing stuff on the internet. Doing. You know, people who are trying to monetize blogs or mean it’s in a, in a in an overarching sense, it was starting a business, but it could look like anything. Um, but I remember an early argument from a lot of people was like, I can my my income is capped. By working for somebody else, and my income is capped. Freelancing. If time equals money. But the whole, you know, make money while you sleep thing became a real.

Cory Maass (00:30:06) – Point of importance. But that’s, you know, but that’s money. So it’s like if money isn’t your driving factor then then why would you do it? You know. And to me it’s the it’s how you win the game. Right? Um, but it’s not necessarily the. The motivation for doing it. Like said, for me, it’s a compulsion to create, like you, and I’ve shared with you that I had this other can’t call it a music career music hobby that I took way too seriously, tied up into my identity. Same thing. Had to untangle that. But I still create music. Why? I still put out records of dance music that is generally only listened to in England by people much younger than me. Why? Because I enjoy it. Because it’s fun, you know? But what’s what’s yeah. What’s my motivation? Not only not only is it different from everybody else’s, maybe, but it also changes over time. I think that’s okay.

Corey Miller (00:31:13) – So I would put that in the label of passion.

Corey Miller (00:31:15) – Like it’s a passion in a hobby. It’s enough of a passion to be a hobby, that you do it without financial reward. Right? If you read most of the the, the thinkers, the authors, it’s follow your bliss, you know, and something’s going to come out of that. So like, you know, I think the advice they would give it to you is you keep doing it and something’s going to come on. But you also know if we’ve had these discussions where you’re good with just doing it. I think it’s interesting though. It’s like when you talk timeline and stuff when we said before or after, is this idea too? Or doesn’t people get it? Is it ready for it? And you get the right time and something really takes off or just builds over time, you know, just slowly builds over time that’s doing anything new, I think. But if you follow their line of thinking, it’s like, keep doing the music. Because you said really young and in younger and in the UK you go, let’s just you do new and somebody is interested.

Corey Miller (00:32:21) – If you do it long enough, right. You could find something fun. That discovery of like, okay, I’m just going to do me and people in younger generation and the UK love it. You know, there’s all these amazing stories.

Cory Maass (00:32:39) – So I’m a big music history nerd. Pop culture history nerd really. Um, and there’s all these fast. Like what part of what I find fascinating about pop culture and these movements is, is also these people who saw no boundaries or broke boundaries or like, you see a couple of people come to mind. There’s a guy named David Rattigan, um, who in the 60s and 70s, guess so. He’s a white British man who fell in love with reggae. And he has built an entire very successful career. Championing, championing something that is. Arguably not his at all. Like he like as more and more reggae and music from Jamaica and the so-called West Indies like, came to England. He was seeking it out, putting himself in awkward position sometimes by being, you know, the only white man in the room or whatever, and then and deejaying this music and then eventually wound up like on with these radio shows and whatnot.

Cory Maass (00:34:05) – And just it’s a it’s his whole identity and, and people love him for it, you know. And it was just something that it absolutely drove him. But nobody, you know, his his other friends think he started out trying to be an actor. And there’s other friends from, you know, suburban London or wherever he was from where like, what are you doing? Like, this makes no sense. And so same thing. People around me like, what is this WordPress thing? And and why do you insist on writing plugins for it and trying to sell them? Like what? What why? You know what to what end or making music like that is, you know, nobody around me, nobody in rural New Hampshire gives a crap about the music that mean, like, my neighbor who likes, you know, a little bit of dance music. Well, we’ll play it out loud when she’s cleaning once in a while. Loud enough for me to hear it because it’s sort of funny, but, like, she’s not a fan or, you know, she’s not the DJs who are playing.

Cory Maass (00:35:12) – So it’s like. But we all have to just do our thing. And sometimes it makes sense to the people around us and sometimes it doesn’t. But okay.

Corey Miller (00:35:21) – I can’t remember the author’s name, but he shared Adam. Nate Silver. I can’t remember his name. He’s the one that did CD, baby.

Cory Maass (00:35:29) – Derek Shivers.

Corey Miller (00:35:30) – Derek Sivers, one of his books. He shows a YouTube video of a person in a festival that gets up and just dancing. Kind of crazy, like doing their thing. And then over time, somebody starts, jumps up, stands with them. Dance, dance. Yeah. That’s very this was his, his example. But it’s very similar to this. If you’re the only one dancing at the end, you know you got to dance because you like it. Yeah. You got to believe in it. For me, my terminology. You got to believe in it. You know, that’s what we’ve been talking about with OMG. OMG is like, we believe these things should be better and we believe we have some ideas about it.

Corey Miller (00:36:14) – You know, it’s kind of kept us going over 28 weeks now. Now, the hard part is we can’t control, right? Other people coming up and doing that. And that’s where I think probably the perceived craziness and insanity of. A business and entrepreneurship. To people, it’s like you got to be able to dance alone for a while, right? You got to believe in it enough. Want it enough to just dance by yourself for a while in the hope. Promise that somebody’s going to join you. You know, I’m in the middle of this right now is, you know, I feel we have believe we need to do these things and maybe dance by myself for a while, which is fine, you know, like, but that’s the other part is like, you got to you eventually got to make some money, you know, you got to. So how long do you dance? And I think that’s like where your music, you got other ways to pay for your life. You can dance and just keep dancing, you know.

Corey Miller (00:37:19) – Right. And that’s, you know, it’s like Kevin Kelly’s thousand raving fans. I think it’s the people that do dance, are willing to dance by themselves for a long time that are the ones that people are going to go, I’m going to dance with you. Like you really believe there’s something here. You see, you continue to dance, whatever that is. And when you get those, his thesis is when you get those thousand. Those are the ones that come to every concert, whatever it is. I think the same with very similar comparisons with businesses. You just believe in what you’re doing, why you’re doing it, and keep doing it as long as people keep paying, supporting you. It’s a pretty good thesis. In real life, it’s really messy. It’s really messy.

Cory Maass (00:38:08) – Right. And you? I. Two things one. I always had this inflated sense of self-worth that came from I was going to be a rock star, so absolutely convinced. And then I wasn’t and I haven’t.

Cory Maass (00:38:24) – And and same with success in business that I’ve tried and tried and tried but so I at some point, probably in my 30s, one, I had to accept that I was like just a person and and I’ve always it’s funny because inversely, I’ve always had this sense of like, I am in not even a blip in the history of humanity. And so I’m on this earth for hopefully 80 or 100 years, but then no expectation of anybody remembering me. But at the same time, like while I’m alive, I really wanted to be a rock star. Um, but so I think the, the logic of I don’t matter. Finally, one, because in my 30s I was like, I have to be okay with not ever accomplishing anything of note, historically speaking, and and be okay with that. And it’s like and in some ways that was a little freeing. Um, and so then it became a sense of like, oh, but there’s there’s a chance that I will die. And. Everything.

Cory Maass (00:39:35) – All of these. See it’s it’s funny because it creativity and creation. Plays such a. Different part. Like creating music. I created music for the sake of creating music. If it. If I find that music good, then I I’m I’m arguably successful. Right. So art is a is a different thing like writing music or creating sculpture that you lives in your garage, um, and never being discovered as an artist and ever, you know, done it like, but if it if you’re satisfied with that and great. Which is different from some approaches to art, but arguably a more business approach to art or the way we’re talking about business. Like if I create a plugin and I never release it, what’s what’s the point? Like, if it solves my business need, I guess it’s the same, same thing. And I sit around, you know? Feeling good about myself, having built this thing that works, you know, that maybe makes my life easier or whatever, or I’ve just pet it, you know, and go, this is the coolest plug in ever lived.

Cory Maass (00:40:47) – But it’s like the the mark of success is pretty defined. And getting into open source. So or we overlap with open source. So it doesn’t necessarily have to be money but people finding it useful. People wanting it. And so it was the same thing for me as a rock star is like, I never necessarily expected to make lots of money, but I wanted I wanted people to want my music, and now I want people to want. So it’s the thing I create. I want people to want it. Or get joy out of it or something. It’s like it’s very abstract. I don’t I’ve never really been able to find it. Well, but but so there’s a chance that I die. And all of these things that I’ve tried to do. The art can exist for art’s sake, but these businesses, these products that I’ve created, if nobody ever downloads them and uses them, you know, then arguably they were not successful because that is the mark of success as opposed to a successful piece of music existing on its own, or a painting existing for the sake of the painting existing on.

Cory Maass (00:41:55) – So. But but at the end of the day, being okay with that, which I think has helped me like said, take the pressure off myself and go, okay, I can, you know, hacking away at this, but I don’t need to sacrifice my livelihood or the relationships around me, or if this isn’t fun, at some point at the level that I’m operating, when it becomes a multimillion dollar business again, the levers are different. But like at the level that I’m operating currently, you know, I can I can fix this bug tomorrow. As long as people aren’t losing revenue in their own businesses or lives or, you know. Yep, I finished my thought, but felt like did.

Corey Miller (00:42:46) – It’s it’s an equation, you know, to me. You know, there’s part of the question is money because you need money. You want money. And then the fulfillment side. What’s fulfillment money, I guess. You know, I’m going to butcher the name, but the Japanese have a turn for it.

Corey Miller (00:43:05) – Economy. Akani. Anyways. Two bubbles. What you love to do, what people are willing to pay and that overlap is right here. And I’ve been greedy. I want that to be this, you know, and the reality is like, no, it’s it’s this and finding happiness there in my entrepreneurship, okay, I want to do these things for people. So like I’ve been trying to do entrepreneurial groups, small groups, not mastermind, not where you’re just like, Corey, you should do this, you should do that. But okay, you’re having this issue. I’m going to share a parallel one. We all draw truth from our own truth and application. And I’ve been a part of a group like that for ten plus years. Helped start two more in that organization, trying to do it for WordPress people. I’m like and other entrepreneurs. Feels like fighting uphill battle. It’s not going to happen. So I go, okay, maybe that’s not something I would love to help put into the world be a part of.

Corey Miller (00:44:08) – Maybe that’s part of it here. It’s like it’s out of that pay you like the moment seems like some of that formula is the moment that costs is way too high. Can help this little inner. Over whatever that shape would be. It’s a negotiation, right?

Cory Maass (00:44:28) – Right. I mean, yeah.

Corey Miller (00:44:29) – Clients that allow you to do things you still get fulfillment from, I’m sure, solving problems, you know, for that client. And it pays you enough to do these other things that that people don’t pay you for this, but you really do love. I guess that’s the definition of a hobby, right? I need more hobbies, Corey.

Cory Maass (00:44:50) – Or, you know, is it still a hobby if it makes money? Is it still a hobby when it goes from hobby to a vocation to vocation? If it’s paying all your bills, if it’s your primary focus in life, if it arguably replaces work in your life.

Corey Miller (00:45:05) – So we’ve seen that exact thing in numerous times. And WordPress developer. Can build it.

Corey Miller (00:45:13) – Thanks. Should be out there. I’m going to do it. Pippen Williamson is my shining example here. And nothing. He said this publicly. Then it turns into vocation business, and that evolves and grows as that enterprise should have. Like it was. It was a great solution. Still is like helps. I think we’re using it on GMG. I remember talking to him and going like developer that what Michael Gerber talks craftsman crafts. People like enjoy the work. Then you stumble into that like where it might have been a hobby in that category and then becomes like, Holy shit, I’ve got 30 people on my team now, and I really didn’t set out to become a CEO, a founder, a leader, like in that sense. And that’s totally okay. And then goes, I don’t know if I like this job. You know, and I’m like a bunch of people in our space have been there. Developer build something of value takes off. Ends up being in evolves into a different role.

Corey Miller (00:46:22) – They’re like, I’d just like to code. I’ve heard that sentiment a bunch of times and I totally get it. I go, gosh, if you’re so good at something, you find enjoyment out of it and then involved in something, and you have to either evolve with it or find other people like Jake. Jake from 10up, I think, was brilliant in recognizing that in himself. I don’t want to be the CEO. I want to hire John Ackman to run 10up. And they’ve had a great partnership for a long time. And I go, I told him that on the podcast. I was like, I really admire that because you recognized it. Because pride and ego. No, I’m the founder. I’m the CEO. But I don’t want to do that work. I want to do this work that’s more appropriate to him, and I really value that. But. That whole thing just because I guess I did have a hobby. I guess I was building websites on the side and I did enjoy that.

Corey Miller (00:47:13) – And it I purposely tried to turn it into a for profit business. I shouldn’t say that. My freelance business came totally. I stumbled into that, you know, people asking me to build their website and paying me. And I was like, okay, I’m learning, but yes. And then go, I want it to be more. So I did want it. I wanted to be more a manager leader. Maybe not. Maybe didn’t know fully what I was getting into when I thought that, you know. But I see that all the time, and I, I don’t have a good perspective, I guess, on that or thoughts about it because I go, gosh, something that you really do love my thesis would be. Get paid for it too, but it evolves into things that. May not be something you may drain you. You know, you could tell what we’re talking about. It’s like just not something they grew up thinking. I want to do this. Never consider it as a career field, you know? And then they’re having to for almost forced, seemingly forced to do that.

Corey Miller (00:48:17) – And it’s not. Not a happy thing.

Cory Maass (00:48:20) – Well there’s this I mean there’s this social concern, the social expectation of I remember my grandfather. Anytime I was working, anytime I had a job, he would say, you know, where can you go with that? It’s like the only thing that mattered was promotion. And so there’s, you know, you’re a developer, then you’re a senior developer. Then what manager. That doesn’t. And as we know, and there’s been lots of talk and discussion and writing now about like. Developers probably are not good at working with people, let alone, you know, might be good at working with people. So it doesn’t necessarily, you know, the next step should probably not necessarily be expected that they go and manage people and stop writing code. I mean, it’s a totally different skill set. It’s a different job. It’s a different everything. Um, and same with, yeah, balancing books or the thing that I see the most or have paid the most attention to in the last 20 years is marketing like it’s the unicorn who the rare person who can build a thing and then also market it.

Cory Maass (00:49:36) – Totally different mindset and think some people can push through it. I’ve never been able to. I’m I. I’ve read all all the books about marketing. Think I have a good sense of. But I can’t begin to make myself do it because I just don’t want it. It’s not my passion. I’m not. That’s not the way I define creating. It’s not how my brain thinks and works and acts. And so I’m not going by myself. I’m probably not going to see the success that I want because, you know, among the many other hats you have to wear, there’s development and marketing or sales. So yeah, it’s it’s tough to. I think manage those expectations though, because again, like there’s this idea that, oh, you know, you have to do it all yourself. Or whatever it is, you know. And again, it looks different for different people, like our Derek Sivers is written about in his books that I don’t remember the exact circumstances, but he basically became leader in absentia at CD baby and went away for a year because he was like, all I want to do is write code, work on these certain features.

Cory Maass (00:50:49) – But then he came back and because he had been so in absentia, the company they, they had formed, um, employee profit sharing, and they’ve done a bunch of stuff that, you know, he, he was like, as the leader of the company, I probably should have been involved in this, but I chose to be absent. So, of course, I’ve mean thrilled that they took the, you know, the steering wheel and kept driving. But anyway, so, you know, I think a lot of people have struggled with that. Well.

Corey Miller (00:51:25) – This this is my experience and I could totally be wrong, but like to do business, endeavor or anything new, you have to have someone driving it. Like being. This is where I’ve gotten into trouble. But like, relentless. Keep pushing it forward. I took off, I didn’t take off. I was still working, but I. We moved to New Mexico for three months with our family when our kids were young and. When I wasn’t there.

Corey Miller (00:51:56) – When I was still on Slack. I realized when I came back that I was helping us push, like in someone, I felt at least someone in most businesses I’ve been a part of. If someone needs to keep driving. Keep driving things forward. Pushing. Pushing now I think I can get way overboard way too much, but someone needs to kind of keep pushing, stretching us to take next steps, to make progress, to do more, to do better. And that’s often at least in the entrepreneurs I know. They’re drivers of their business, and you need a driver. Um. And that’s part of this weight too. You do it as a solopreneur. You have to drive yourself to wake up, to do the client work, to do those things, to push, to go, okay, maybe this one’s coming up. I need to get another one. I need to go initiative. Maybe as part of that, you know, to do that. And this is where, you know, talk privately is like for this one business, I feel like I have to be the driver.

Corey Miller (00:53:05) – No one else is going to do it or us will stay status quo. And that to me, eventually, if status quo will go like this, we’ll decline. Just like when I left for three months and I came back and go, oh, there’s profit sharing now, huh? With, you know, like, okay, but in the absence of someone leading, you know, my mentor used to say, you are the lid, the leader is the lid. The organization cannot go past where you are. So you have to either grow or step aside. Or if you stay here, it’s only going to be as best as you can. I’ve seen a lot of entrepreneurs done it myself. It’s a hard time letting go of that because there’s ego, there’s importance, identity. There’s value. So I go, okay, I have to grow. I have to try to get out of my certain things if the business is going to be there. That’s the tandem, I think someone to drive the whole group forward.

Corey Miller (00:54:00) – Product. Same thing. Got to have someone like you going, we got to do react. We got to do these things. Because if it was to me, I’d been like, just keep it going the way we had it. Like, don’t rebuild it now. It’s it’s a good thing because you drove that development of that. So. Duality of things of. Yeah.

Cory Maass (00:54:21) – Well, and I mean, one of the things that I often I’ve struggled with for years, too, is like what you just said or what’s inherent in everything you just said is self-awareness. And and you’re gonna. People struggle. Because of ego, because of identity, because of social pressure, because of all these things. And, um, and often the, the inability to go, like you said, do I even want this or is this my role? And and then also if, if this is my role, then how does this play a part in. It’s like your CEO you don’t want to be CEO.

Cory Maass (00:55:07) – You can’t just walk away and like you said, and expect things to keep churning along. So you often it’s not you’re not able to flip a switch. It’s a transition in and a transition and you know, and eventually hopefully you get to where you want or, you know, find the right person to partner with or. But it’s all it’s an equation. Like you said, the equation is always changing. The variables are always changing. And.

Corey Miller (00:55:35) – And then it comes down to one thing we kind of touched on from. He’s a different word for it persistence. But resilience. How long are you willing to do that? We’ve had 28 weeks of talking and really we’ll just call it a year. We’ve been doing this year, you know, and we still believe enough to keep going. Now we’re closer. We’re razor close to the line, which, by the way of taking a whole hour to digress on this, but sorry for that. Um, but. That’s the other part is we haven’t given up.

Corey Miller (00:56:08) – You know, and I used to hear it early on in entrepreneurship is like, if you don’t have resilience, don’t like knock on the door of entrepreneurship. And I was like, yeah, now I go, yeah. Because economically and globally we are having an inward press. It’s there’s an effect of the economy. Yep. Just fact. And you go I think it was all state. Some of these you know, that went through these really hard economic times came out and were stronger, better and all that kind of stuff. But I keep going like. With all the businesses I’m a part of, just like, got to go. You got to go through it. You got to get. And sometimes you just got to get through it. But that’s where you lose a lot of people. The statistics you hear cliche almost is like businesses and failure. Five years. Why? Because shit will hit the fan. It does hit the fan. And. Think if you can survive through it, get through it.

Corey Miller (00:57:19) – You’re going to be better for it in the beginning. You’re going to learn things. It’s going to force you to do things. Those external events causes internal growth kind of thing. Totally believe that. But it’s a it’s a barrier to the field.

Cory Maass (00:57:33) – But yeah. And but it also like the the inverse of that that I’ll that I’ll say that I’ve. Experienced in the last few years. Is that in for a long time now? It’s like. I. The first success I ever saw around me, shared a co-working space with a guy who left the co-working heat. We were all sitting in an open room and basically he he wasn’t around anymore. And and we’re like, wait, where did he go? And it turned out that he like he’d gotten a but one of the the when we work you had open spaces and closed spaces and he got a closed space that didn’t have a window intentionally because he’s like, I have to laser focus 16 hour days. I will sleep under my desk. And, you know, and that was the, you know, people talk about criticize now, at least in my world, but like still talk about the hustle culture and all that stuff.

Cory Maass (00:58:35) – And it’s like, so yes, resilience. But that resilience doesn’t have to look like anything. That’s something that has changed in my perception is that because after a while, I started finding more and more. People who have a little company that does a little thing and and they keep it, keep it turning. But it they’re not necessarily seeking, you know, it’s not grow or die, but it’s also not when to get through a hard hard. Period of time. Like, it doesn’t necessarily have to be all about hustle, or it doesn’t have to be about like grinding for 16 hour days or so. There’s no formula. There probably never was, but people swore up and down that there was. Whereas now it’s like you. Like I’ve been I’ve resisted for 58 minutes bringing it up or 68 minutes, but I’ve been watching rewatched halt, Catch Fire. Oh, I’ve mentioned, but it’s like any time I’m working hard on something new, I rewatched that show because it’s.

Corey Miller (00:59:52) – Need to go back to that.

Corey Miller (00:59:54) – So such a great show.

Cory Maass (00:59:57) – But so much of this type of stuff that we talk about and these characters that push and pull and even most recently the, you know, two people are like, let’s, let’s work together again. Well, okay, what’s the idea? The idea will come later. You know, we we’ve proven that we will always come up with an idea and, and just all these little things and. Like there isn’t. There isn’t a formula like push when you want to push when you can, you know, and it and it may die but or the, you know, the business may die or stumble or whatever, but you know, tomorrow do something different. Keep it whatever. Like that’s the other way that I look at time now is. You know, right place and very time and and it’s a finite there’s a finite amount of time and all that stuff. But then there’s also there’s also always tomorrow. So you can try again or try something different or, you know, doesn’t necessarily it’s not necessarily the idea is not necessarily going to come to you today.

Corey Miller (01:01:03) – A care for is a simultaneous to hold my gut and oh God, I remember like experiences and then just go. It’s a really, to me, the most authentic view of doing this, like it’s Silicon Valley was just the absurdity of it. You know, it’s like that whole world. But you go there’s so many parallels there for people that don’t go get VC funding and unicorn status and all that. Because it’s it’s a tough gig, you know. Yeah. And it blends into I think as you grow. Leadership like managing. Not just your team, but the customers you know, and product. This. I think this is why we all gravitate toward product. It feels a little bit more boundaries. Okay, bye. OMG IMG the agreement, the mutual agreement we have. If you have a problem, it’s going to come to this system. You know, and our job is to make sure support gets quickly responded with help. Yep. Very simple premise product. We’re not negotiating on the price, although we do with coupons.

Corey Miller (01:02:19) – Um, but here’s the price we’ve set that we think is reasonable value, and it builds in profitable enterprise for us to do all these things and grow. And you go, I think this is why, like the ideal business we all think of is product. Why you and I, at least I’ll talk for myself. Not about you again. For me, I like that it’s more boundaries. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. Somebody else is probably going to buy it. We priced it enough where we think we can make money on it, and over time might have to calibrate that. That’s what we’re doing right now is calibrating price like $100 a year is not enough to sustain the bare bones of the business. Right. And where we want to grow to. So you want to do more. You got to adjust things. And but I like I like that model. It feels cleaner, you know. Yeah. But then again, there’s professionals like you that have done consulting and services for years that you got that I’m this project fee or this hourly fee and you’ve got clients over here that pay it and stay within boundaries.

Corey Miller (01:03:26) – I think with the services side I haven’t always. It fills a little bit more where you get more of an agreement here of. Mostly in WordPress particularly. I’m going to buy. This probably comes with an annual license with a couple of licenses. I’m going to get support through my ticket system. If not, I want to ask for a refund or just cancel my renewal.

Cory Maass (01:03:48) – But huge, huge history of for me, I fired so many clients because there isn’t because expectations weren’t managed. And that is a huge advantage of product that is. Hopefully expectations of management are managed. And I’m 37 signals now base camp or whatever. I wrote a book called rework years and years ago.

Corey Miller (01:04:18) – First Kindle book I ever bought.

Cory Maass (01:04:20) – That’s cool and and mean. They’re just cocky, like they’ve always pushed boundaries, some of which I agree with and some of which I don’t. And they’ve, you know, grown and changed over time too. But there was stuff early on that I that resonated with me where they were like, don’t at a high level don’t operate out from out of from a position if you can.

Cory Maass (01:04:48) – This isn’t always an option. Don’t operate from a position of desperation or fear. And I’ve had to learn that lesson personally, even though I’ve learned about it, write about it. But they, you know, things that stuck with me from rework was like, don’t say yes to every feature. You know, we say no to every feature, and that’s them being cocky. The right answer is, in my opinion, is to reply and say, you know, we will take that under consideration. And where I usually say I will add that to the feature request list, not the feature list, not the future feature list, not the roadmap, but we will, you know, it’s another vote for that feature. Maybe. Maybe not. We will build it down the road. But I also have learned, like with previous plugins. I’ve. I’ve fired users. Pretty regularly, um, meaning, you know, once a month or something, but, you know, going not. I’m sorry.

Cory Maass (01:05:50) – You think that by by paying $100 for my plug in, I am going to be able to respond within 18 minutes or that I have a team of support people who are awake and working around the world, I don’t. And so here’s your money back. See you. Even with a Mexican train, it’s all donation. Mexican train online. It’s all donation. And I’ve had people get really mad at me for bugs or for just. You know the game is free. Like you don’t have to. You don’t have to donate. And so they don’t remember what the the premise was, but there was a guy who was just getting. Pissy with me and and almost anybody who brings up like. And by the way, I donated. I immediately find their donation and refunded. Because I’m like, I just don’t want. I don’t want you to even think that you have this power over this thing. Um.

Corey Miller (01:06:56) – Before you said that, I was about to say a business could run off that model. Really, truly run off that model.

Corey Miller (01:07:01) – It’d be a great model. Until you said that. That was like even people that donate have. Those expectations, right? And that’s just part of the world, right? Yeah. Someone’s. And that’s fine.

Cory Maass (01:07:16) – That’s fine. You know, so. And there’s whole swaths of people who operate like that and and I’ve, you know, over the years, thankfully, more often than not, I’ve lucked on to clients that are. Not awful people and have reasonable expectations. My current client, one of his favorite phrases love this and I now use this often is small children will not die if and so if the home page is down, this is, you know, nobody’s dying. But that’s something to panic about. But if it’s the footer on the 13th page that you have to click through, you know, has a typo. Small children will not die if that doesn’t get fixed until Monday. I love that perspective and think you’re right. Like in product and product businesses, there’s a better expectation of.

Cory Maass (01:08:15) – By all means. If our plugin breaks your website. Write us a frantic email. But no, I’m not going to give you my phone number and I’m not going to jump on a zoom call with you. I’m going to do my level best to to get this fixed for you quickly, you know? And and if not, I will give you your money back like I always. I’ve always had. Or historically usually had 90 day money back. Think I’ve dropped that now to 30 day money back. But like I’ve had people come to me after a year and I’m like, you know what, just here’s your 150 bucks back. It’s not. Which is obviously different. My client came came to me and was like, um, we’ve been unsatisfied for a year. We need a year’s salary back. Like, that’s a different scenario. But, you know, I’m never I don’t think I’d ever not give refund somebody the cost of the product because it’s just not, you know, it’s it’s not worth it.

Cory Maass (01:09:21) – It’s not worth the fight. It’s not worth the the stress. I’d rather go make ten other people happy than spend an hour fighting with a support ticket or something. You got to go.

Corey Miller (01:09:37) – No. Was just. Oh, okay. It’s. I’ve been going to this. Yeah. Just hearing all this and then by by proxy, almost with Lindsey as an entrepreneur too, you know. It’s all of these things about business that are really tough for me and get really messy, and I don’t always handle them well, you know, and it’s a large part of that is I’m going through this learning acceptance and letting go. And they’re the two sides of the coins. And I was like. You know, just those things that are just a part of it. And do you accept those? You know, like the bell curve is always like, I was baffled for a second when you said people that would donate would still be shitty about it. And I’m like, are you kidding me? And then I go about half human nature.

Corey Miller (01:10:37) – Someone’s already like someone was. Some stuff sitting was like, so your anonymous person, maybe your spam looks like the I’m like, maybe not. But I’m like. Don’t give a bunch of credence to that and go, oh, I forgot. It’s not just the internet. This is the world. Like there’s going to be people where you’re like, you’re doing this anonymously and sharing this stuff and saying you’re not just making. And I’m like, that’s just that is just contents of the world. So I go, okay, got it. Accept that. That never going to change. I can’t change, you know? Um, and then there’s other side on the other bit, like, thank you for doing what you’re doing all that stuff. Right. And so, you know, I think because I backed into truly stumbled into business, sure. I wanted it all along but didn’t know if there’s a reasonable and got my ticket. And I’ve known entrepreneurs who have worked for years to try to get it.

Corey Miller (01:11:37) – And I go, man, I backed into it, I got it. It was a home run. That was awesome. Didn’t have discovered. It’s like baseball. If you average 300 hitting percentage in baseball, you’re in the Hall of Fame. That’s a that’s three. Three out of ten. I said one third of the time you’re you’re going to actually hit something. The two thirds you’re going to strike out. Anyway, all that to say is accepting that. And I think that’s sorry. Thank you for letting me do this, to have this conversation, because it always helps. Talking with you through these things is accepting like you for the trade off, too. It’s going to be people that are just habitually unhappy. Nothing you’re going to do about that. Yep. There’s going to be people that are shitty. There’s going to be people that are just flat out ungrateful, you know? And that’s where me, I, I have a personal approach to business that probably isn’t always healthy, Jimmy.

Corey Miller (01:12:34) – You know, and so. Accepting some of the letting go of some of that, probably going to help do the job better, you know? Yep.

Cory Maass (01:12:43) – It’s to do it’s still self-awareness. It’s still perspective. It’s still letting time go by. You know, all these things that contribute to these sticky situations, so to speak. But we we do what we can. And. Something that I heard first from Matt Mullins that I like is some good intentions. Um, I had to learn early days of the internet that it’s okay to stop replying. Thankfully, haven’t gotten into a flame war or an online argument in a very long time. And the few that I had still haunt me because was like, what? Why did I why didn’t I just stop, you know, and stuff like that? So have more patience now. But these are all just, you know, it’s in your nature or it’s not. It’s things that you have to do, learn, figure out for yourself. Um, and, and also like, there’s still bad days where stuff gets away from.

Cory Maass (01:13:50) – Okay. You know. Else can you do?

Corey Miller (01:13:56) – Greater good for the entrepreneur. And this baseball analogy. Getting back up to the plate and swinging. Sure, you know this. Just keep swinging.

Cory Maass (01:14:07) – Assuming you know or assuming that the pitcher wasn’t trying to hit you. Assuming that the ref. Isn’t from the from like we we we end up going to high school. Sports games. And I’ve actually wound up at one point, you know, so the home team, all the parents are here. And the away team, all the parents are here and there were no seats. And so I was standing in the middle. And so I literally had parents from both sides next to me on both sides, and both of them absolutely convinced that the ref was from the other team’s town and had been paid off and were 100% making all the wrong calls against their team. And I was I was actually hearing it from both sides and thankfully not my kids. And so no real skin in the game. And so I was laughing into my sleeve because I’m like, that’s that’s everybody’s perspective, right? You know, and and hopefully at the end of the day, like they can they can let it go.

Cory Maass (01:15:16) – But everybody’s convinced that everybody’s out to get them. That’s not true. You assume that it’s a bad day. You assume that the if the ref makes a bad call, they’re all volunteer man, or they work from beer money and most of them have day jobs, at least at the high school, you know. Oh, yeah, cut them a break.

Corey Miller (01:15:34) – I know that’s umpired. And when I was in high school, Little League games, I didn’t have to call balls and strikes and stuff, but I was like, they were pretty cool with me. But you’re like, yeah, this isn’t their full time job. They probably do because they’re passionate about the sport and the kids give them a break. Yeah. You know. But. Yeah, and that’s with business. You come in with those perspectives. I’ve tried to be more empathetic and go, okay, can I pause this for a second? Put myself on the other side, you know, knowing there are clear boundaries or should be boundaries, I should say, and we should make them clear about, like where I’m not willing to go mine with it has been if you’re personally attacking somebody, it’s it’s out of balance.

Corey Miller (01:16:24) – Like, that’s what I’ve really hurt because however, I might feel privately about WordPress and its direction and decisions that people make. When you turn it against a particular person, you’ve gone out of bounds. Keep it about the work, keep it about the decision, not the person in it, but it. It will just degrade down into it. So anyway.

Cory Maass (01:16:49) – Well and for me, a big one learning the whole compliment in public, criticizing private. And I’m not saying that there isn’t also an aspect of CYA. So like document or record your zoom calls and be up front like I’m going to record my zoom calls, but I’m not going to make this public or whatever. But, you know, generally laundry is not best aired in public. It just isn’t. (01:17:19) – Even not personal.

Corey Miller (01:17:20) – I agree, but we are old school, Cory. Like, I’m like, yeah, praise in public, criticize in private, you know, and take these. And then I’m like, but it’s so easy to go on Twitter or somewhere else and say something.

Corey Miller (01:17:36) – And I’ve been guilty of it. Totally been guilty of it. I try to pick the bigger companies, not the smaller like the big ones, but you know. It’s so easy to vent those out and you’re like, so again, I just go back to. It’s a really tough job, you know. I don’t know if I’m always up for it for sure, but I keep coming back to it, keep getting up to play, even if I feel like I’m getting thrown at.

Cory Maass (01:18:06) – Yeah. And that’s that’s that intrinsic motivation. Some for some people it’s extrinsic. For me, it’s intrinsic. Like I have to do it. I don’t know why I’ve created. At least a handful of businesses based off of dozens and dozens of products that I’ve built. And and they the end goal 99 out of 100 times, putting it out in public for some reason. That’s what I love doing and continue to do.

Corey Miller (01:18:38) – The way I’ve looked at entrepreneurship and I’m only going to I’m only speaking for myself in this, is that I felt like a misfit in many parts of my life for, you know, and you see this profession, it’s really a profession and been around some of my best friends are entrepreneurs.

Corey Miller (01:18:55) – Most of my, I would say most of my best friends are entrepreneurs. And you go like, we just typically probably aren’t going to fit as well in these other buckets. And I’ve been really thankful that there’s a profession that. I feel like I fit. You know, I feel like I belong. I always doubt my own, you know, skills and abilities and things. But I go. It’s a profession that like suits me, for the most part, I think with the fact that because it’s not this title. These job descriptions, in this window of time, with these boundaries and expectations, it’s it’s all over the place. You got. Okay. I got a way that going. Okay. This like we’re we’re I think I told you I’m getting ready to get an assessment for ADHD and sensory processing disorder. And you look at that in a spectrum and I never I’ve always heard autism is on the spectrum. But I saw in this book right here that those particular issues are on the autism spectrum.

Corey Miller (01:20:08) – When I go, oh my God, have I lived 47 years of my life not knowing consciously. This is a little bit different. And then you see some of the studies and you see why like I have no stats to bring this up, but I see on. Experience talking to entrepreneurs. Probably have something on that spectrum because, you know, like you stayed up late coding, you know, burning the midnight oil, coming up, doing it like Anna from Vita Bars. She, she spent three months getting her initial formula testing. Like this is physical work, putting the ingredients together, buying the ingredients, assembling ingredients. Do that and you go. That’s not always normal or natural, like to do that amount of work to get that product. At the end of the day, that was sell for $25, you know, and you go, you kind of got to bring and 27, 28 weeks we’ve been doing this. You if we weren’t just a little bit out on this, there’s a better word for it than insane or crazy.

Corey Miller (01:21:19) – But like in this not the average or what is typically seen or expected. What do we do this work. And it’s like, oh. It makes sense because my thing is I can dive deep, I can hyper focus. And as we’ve had, you know, kids and friends around you go that certain things crop up. And I’m like, tell me more about that. Again. I’m like, mm hmm. Because I can hyper focus, man. Like I’m not a developer, but I can I can go down. 

Cory Maass: Oh, absolutely. 

Corey Miller: You know, it’s probably good I’m not a developer because I’d be like crashing computers, never sleeping, but, like, think you got to have whatever. Something that is the ability to like drive, focus, and through starting something new people don’t understand and getting through that barrier. Like we’re working on that barrier will be working on that barrier for a long time. Yep. Break through to go. Oh, that. I want more of that.

Corey Miller (01:22:28) – That’s completely derail this.

Cory Maass (01:22:30) – And I got a bounce. I got a call. Okay, but this is great. Let’s. Mean. These are always fun, but yeah, maybe we do a second call later this week. 

Corey Miller (01:22:41) – Yeah.Let’s talk in Slack. I got some time.

Cory Maass (01:22:43) – Awesome. Thanks.

Corey Miller (01:22:44) – Thanks my friend.

This article, Launching a WordPress Product in Public: Session 28, was published at Post Status — the community for WordPress professionals.

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